In this article, we are sharing the show notes and the full transcript of the seventh Episode of our Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace podcast.

“I had to be under special advocacy and that caused a huge psychological impact. For a long time I thought I wouldn’t make it because this is one of the countries where human rights defenders are being killed.” ~Alejandro Parra Macías

Conscientious objection – the refusal to participate in military service based on personal moral, ethical, or religious beliefs – is nothing new, but with increased awareness of human rights, changing attitudes toward military service, and heightened global conflicts that provoke moral and ethical concerns, conscientious objection is becoming more prevalent. 

In this episode, we learn more about what conscientious objection is, the enormous challenges many individuals face when it comes to evading military conscription – plus, we hear the fascinating stories of two conscientious objectors who, against all odds, evaded fighting on the front line. 

Our guests are:

• Jeff Paterson – a former marine turned conscientious objector from the US 
• Alejandro Parra Macías, Co-founder of the Collective Action of Conscientious Objectors (ACOOC) in Colombia
• Sofia Zelenkevich, coordinator for the Get lost project 

Your hosts are: 

• Dean Peacock, Project Director of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom’s initiative on men and militarism
• Reem Abbas, Communications Coordinator for the Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace Programme

Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace is a podcast from WILPF, the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, in which we uncover the transformative power of feminist peace and explore how men can be active proponents of achieving gender equality and peace. 

In this clip, Alejandro Parra Macías tells us how he didn’t expect to live beyond the age of 30 due to his activism as a conscientious objector in Colombia, a highly militarised country. 

In this clip, Jeff Paterson, discusses the inequalities within the US army and takes us back to when he made the decision to refuse deployment abroad to engage in fighting.

In this clip, Sofia Zelenkevich, talks to us about the economic pressure on poor young Russian men to join the army and support the war.

Reem Abbas: [00:00:00] Imagine being asked to serve in the military. Would you readily sign on the dotted line, or would your moral, ethical, or religious beliefs make you pause? Perhaps even refuse? If the latter resonates with you, you might identify as a conscientious objector. The theme of today’s episode. Welcome to the Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace podcast, where we journey into the intersection of masculinities, violence, and feminist solutions.

I am Reem Abbas, communications coordinator of the Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace program at the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom. The oldest women’s peace organization. A conscientious objector is someone who refuses to serve in the military or carry arms based on their moral, ethical, or religious beliefs.

Conscientious objection is a legal status in many countries, and those who identify can apply to avoid military [00:01:00] conscription. But as you’ll hear throughout this episode, it is often easier said than done. And for some, there are grave consequences. It’s also worth saying, a serving member of the armed forces can also be classed as a conscientious objector if they decide they cannot take part in a specific military operation or follow certain orders.

Why might someone take such a hard stance against war and the military? To help us understand the complexities of conscientious objection, we’re joined by Jeff Patterson, a former Marine turret conscientious objector from the U. S. Alejandro Parra. Mathias, co founder of the Collective Action of Conscientious Objectors in Columbia, and Sofia Zelenkovic, who left Russia in 2022 because of her anti war stance, and now works as a coordinator for the Get Lost Project, which helps Russian soldiers desert from the front [00:02:00] line.

To start, I asked Jeff to explain more about the history of conscientious objection. 

Jeff Paterson: I believe conscientious objection started probably about 10 million years ago. I don’t know, right? Homo sapiens. And I’m sure there’s always, there was always one guy in that tribe. Or maybe a group of kids in that tribe that didn’t want to go, uh, you know, raid the other tribe, but, uh, fast forward millions of years.

And, uh, we are in these advanced societies with, uh, organized, uh, militaries and each country has its own regulations and, and rules decided by their courts and their military hierarchy on how to best. If they want to get rid of what hopefully a relatively small number of people to make their fighting force more effective, how to deal with these outliers.

And not all countries recognize conscious ejectors [00:03:00] and not always the United States military a hundred years ago. Really didn’t either with a few exceptions for traditional peace churches like the Mennonites, um, uh, the Amish, uh, for example, in modern day. Um, but where we are today is, uh, based on, uh, case law during the Vietnam War, including by the contributions of Muhammad Ali and his refusal to go to the Vietnam, be drafted into the Vietnam War.

Courts had to recognize where they decide to recognize a much broader interpretation of religious beliefs. Now, in the United States, it’s no longer about being a traditional religious training, but, uh, and I’ll just read you a definition, right? Affirm, fixed, and sincere objection to the participation in war in any form, uh, or the bearing arms based on religious training.

and [00:04:00] or belief. So that doesn’t have to be a religious belief, but it has to be firm, fixed, unchanging. So like if, uh, yesterday you were against war, but today you weren’t sure, that would be a disqualification. It can’t be based on philosophy or politics. I read, uh, you know, Marx this morning and I say, I’m not going to be part of the military.

So When we’re working with people in the United States military trying to, uh, get out as conscientious objectors, it’s, it’s actually working with them to sort of kind of explain their beliefs in the terms that the U. S. military is willing to hear. And it’s hard, right? Because I went through this process myself.

I read, uh, political literature. I, I had, uh, ideas on philosophy and yet that was part of how I got to that juncture in uniform facing a war. [00:05:00] And yet I had to basically project as, well, okay, that’s not what this is about. It’s about something else. And, uh, to be honest, I failed the military told me I was sincere, but not sincere enough and threw me in jail.

Maybe I think I was a little too honest with some of my answers. Those are the things I can now explain to, uh, other people. Like, okay, well, you know, here, here’s what they’re looking to hear. How can you package yourself up so, uh, they’re willing to listen to you. And if, um, you answer this way, well, then they’re probably gonna respond the other way.

That’s why I wanted to share. It’s a pretty open ended question over millions of years, Here we are. 

Reem Abbas: Thank you, Jeff. And you just shared your experience, you know, going through this, you know, 1990 when you were the first U. S. military serviceman to object, you know, to take part in the Persian Gulf War. Did anything change since then?

Any laws, legislations upholding the right of service people to [00:06:00] object anything that we should know about? I would say nothing has changed, 

Jeff Paterson: well, nothing has changed in a major way, but the U. S. military has its most recent regulations are from 2017 that really kind of actually do reinforce the whole idea that it’s, it’s not about religion.

It’s about firm, fixed, uh, moral beliefs that, uh, Can take the place of religion. And from what I’ve seen, it’s actually easier these days, uh, in many situations, because every situation is unique is to, uh, are you a conscience ejector claim if you’re not part of religion, because the first thing they do, if you’re part of religion, the military goes out and finds a religious.

Person from your religion and says, well, no, that’s not what our religion says. Then you are arguing with the religious elder versus if you’ve come to this conclusion based on your own, uh, morality, then, well, there’s nobody that can [00:07:00] really argue based on your own position. So that’s sort of an interesting change.

Whereas, you know, for 50 years ago, it’s almost, it would be impossible. To, uh, get out as a country objector, if you weren’t part of a, an established religious tradition, but today it’s, it’s kind of harder to get out if you’re a part of an established religious tradition. So I guess that’s, what’s changed in the relatively recent history.

Reem Abbas: Alejandro, can you tell us a little bit about your personal experience as an objector and how did it affect the trajectory of your life? 

Alejandro Parra Macías: To begin with, as Colombia is such a militarized country, for almost three decades, we have this strategy promoted by the United States. States of criminalize any person of any social organization that oppose or criticize the army.

In this reality, uh, the first thing that happens when I, when [00:08:00] I have a 18, Years old when I refuse to do the military service immediately start with different types of accusations like you are a coward for one side, but for another side, you are some kind of guerrilla supporter because. This is a, such a polarized country and a lot of people assume, not only the government, a lot of people, because we have a huge impact of, of the militarization of culture, assume that anyone who is against of militarization, it’s a guerrilla sympathizer.

Like in United States, here, the soldiers, the army institution has seen like heroes. And that’s because we spend hundreds of millions in war publicity to say these people are heroes. All the country have to be grateful with this, [00:09:00] uh, courageous man and, and, and valiant man. And, and yeah, that’s a heavy thing.

But I learned to grow up under this reality that put me in a situation. Special security situation. I have to be in, uh, some kind of a special containment and also a special, uh, advocacy from human rights defenders in that, uh, cause, uh, a huge, uh, psychological impact. I remember that I. For a long time, I thought that I will not make it in the age of 30, because this is one of the countries in the whole world when more human rights defenders or social leaders are being killed.

For a long time, I will have the same fate as many of these human rights defenders in this country. But with the pass of the time, I learned that it is what it is. And if we [00:10:00] refuse. to continue with this, uh, historical, uh, militarization. We don’t go anywhere. So I make clear my position, my non violent position, because we refuse all the armed groups, the army, the guerrillas, the paramilitary army, the narco army.

We refuse all of them. 

Reem Abbas: Thank you, Alejandro, for telling us this very, you know, personal story and your everyday activism. And we want to move to Sofia, you know, Sofia, you are now, you had to leave your country, you had to leave Russia because of your activism and because of your anti war stance. And you’re now involved in a campaign called Get Lost.

Can you tell us more about the campaign and specifically the work that you do with objectors in Russia and also reflect back a little bit on the experience that were the experiences that were just shared in Colombia and in the U. S. 

Sofia Zelenkevich: Yes. Thank you for having me. So I left Russia, as you mentioned, in [00:11:00] 2022 after the full scale, uh, invasion of, uh, Russia, of Ukraine.

And, um, the organization get lost was founded in September, 2022, just one week after the start of, uh, the mobilization in Russia. Uh, so, and the literal name of, uh, get Lost. The first in Russian is uh, which means, uh, go through the forest. And this phrase actually has, um, different meanings, uh, depending on the audience.

So the first meaning is, um, go away, uh, that’s obviously a message, um, addressed to Russian authorities. And, uh, the second meaning is, uh, Hiding the forest and that’s the message we’re sending to all the people who don’t want to go to the Russian army or who wants to desert from the front line. Uh, so the main goal of, uh, get lost is to prevent as many Russians as possible, um, [00:12:00] from going to war and pulling the trigger and thus weakening Putin’s army and bringing the war in.

Dictatorship in Russia, uh, to an end. And majority of our clients, um, are people who are staying in Russia. So they don’t want to leave, they don’t have this option or possibility. And, um, most of them are men who are facing conscription, which is obligatory in Russia, uh, for all men aged from 18 to 30, uh, years old, or, um.

Those who, uh, can be sent to the front line can be mobilized and, um, this makes up about 90 percent of our clients and, um, 10 percent are abused from deserters, from soldiers who are already in the front line. Uh, so we have an. like anonymous hotline, uh, on telegram bots [00:13:00] and, um, volunteers consult people on this telegram bot.

So, uh, if the person stays in Russia and he has a risk of, uh, being dropped or mobilized, uh, then we provide, uh, these people with, um, Legal help or, uh, psychological support, uh, and if the person is already in the army, consult to, uh, refer this client to evacuation coordinator and then they, uh, start to, um, make a plan, uh, how to desert, cross the border illegally or how to hide inside Russia.

Uh, so, um, I would say that it’s more about, um, like radical, uh, human rights, uh, defend and some like, uh, illegal things like crossing the borders and, uh, this, uh, and 

Reem Abbas: other things. [00:14:00] Yeah. So what is the advice that you give them to make sure that you know the process is safe? Like, uh, do you also give them advice on where to go when they cross the border?

And if they remain in the country also, what advice do you give them to make sure that they don’t get, you know, caught and they get, reconscripted into the army. And have you also faced any difficulties and challenges with this process that you can share? Of course. 

Okay. So I 

cannot share all the details of course, but, uh, usually there are some, um, ways, even legal ways.

For example, if the soldier, uh, leaves the military unit, uh, he would not be, he has two days. Yeah. Before he has a criminal case or before, um, commanders start. to find him, so to look for him. And that’s why he has time to leave usually. Or we just, if it’s a very, if the person already has a criminal case [00:15:00] and, uh, uh, he’s already on wanted list, then we.

Just make a plan of, um, illegal way. And, uh, yeah, these details I cannot share, um, because I’m not really involved in this very process. Um, but for those people who want to stay in Russia, so by this moment, we have helped more than about 1000 soldiers to leave the front line. And, um, most of them stay in Russia.

Yeah. And we just give instructions how to hide and how to leave 

Reem Abbas: invisible. This is tremendous efforts, you know, that you’re doing, you know, uh, saving lives and giving people an opportunity to start a new life. Um, Alejandro, I want to go back to you and learn more about the Colombian collective action of conscientious objectors.

You’ve mentioned that Colombia has, you know, a long history of political and state violence, you know, and there’s militarization at the societal level. Can you tell us about The circumstances that [00:16:00] led to the establishment of this movement. And also you do similar work to what, you know, get lost, uh, you know, is doing in Russia.

Alejandro Parra Macías: So we have a context of huge militarization. Columbia has the second largest army in the continent. And for almost 20 years, we have the third highest military budget in the region. It, uh, had different kind of impacts. We have lost almost 22 billion of, for our GDP in, in, in the war. Almost 8 million people has been displaced by violence.

Almost 17, 000 children has been recruited by different groups, even the army, because until, uh, 1993, It’s legal to go into the army in Colombia. If you are under 18, you, you, you can go in, if [00:17:00] you have, uh, 16 or, or 17, you can go in with a, some kind of permission of your parents. Yeah. Or your family. But, but that’s very, uh, huge case just until 1993, specifically in the last.

25 years, the army in Colombia has been responsible for the murder of, uh, 10, 000 of civilians. So, of course, when we create the collective action to consensus objectors, we have to manage how to bring and give to the refusers, or, or, People to don’t want to go to the military service, some kind of legal companion and also a psychological companion because pressure off the people to refuse to do the military services.

It’s a heavy pressure. It’s a culture heavy pressure because it’s not only you are a coward. It’s also like, [00:18:00] like I say before, you are a guerrilla sympathizer. If you don’t want to be a hero, you’re not only a coward. You are part of the problem because obviously we receive all this. Contra Guerrilla kind of a military strategy for the support that we receive of United States, because you know, in 1998, Colombia and United States signed a special court of treatment of cooperation in a military thing that called Plan Colombia.

And, and it’s a huge thing because, uh, we are the third country in the whole world that more, uh, money received for, from the United States for this kind of, uh, advice, uh, and support for, for military objectives. And, like Sophia tell, we We share with the people that we, uh, bring some kind of companion, different [00:19:00] strategies to protect their lives.

Like, this is your legal status, boss, but in, in a lot of regions of this country, your legal status is nothing for the army. They don’t know anything about legal things or legal process. So you need another kind of strategies. And for example, you know, In Colombia, we have a huge problem with arbitrary detentions because the army creates a document.

This document is the military card. I refuse to do the military service, but when they recognize me as a consensus objector, four years before that I make my declaration, my statement, they say, okay, you don’t have to go, but you have to pay. You have to pay a fine, but, but don’t go to the army. When I say why I have to pay, it’s, they don’t have any sense.

This kind of fine for [00:20:00] don’t go to the military service just for my conscience reasons, and they say, okay, if you don’t pay, you have to go to the jail. It’s, it’s very interesting because I am. I’m willing to go to the jail for refuse to pay money for don’t do the military service and and we have a huge problem of corruption in this country.

Just poor people go to the military service because the childs of the of the rich people pay for don’t go to the military service. And I believe that it’s the same thing in almost all the countries and they have a military service or mandatory service. Um, and. I refuse to, to, to pay and they start a process, a legal process against me, but it’s very interesting because in the first trial, the army, the part of the army don’t, don’t go to the, to the audience.

And that’s because, uh, four years before. Uh, [00:21:00] guy to refuse to do the military service has, uh, recognized by Amnesty International as a conscience, I don’t know how to say, incarceration and, and the army has to, uh, release them and public offer, uh, apologies, but that, but put this guy in, in prison. So for that reason, obviously.

We know, like Sophia said, it’s not only a legal strategy, we have to develop some kind of, different kinds of strategies to protect the rights of different people in this country. 

Reem Abbas: Your analysis is very interesting because basically the military service is becoming, it’s a business now, it’s becoming commodified.

It is a result of this inequality, you know, social and economic inequality. But of course, in the long term, it creates more inequality and it makes people kind of in this, You know, go in this vicious cycle of like poverty, Jeff, we also [00:22:00] want to hear from you. And it would be really good if you can reflect on what Alejandro said, um, about the context in, you know, in Columbia, which is of course different from the work that you’re doing.

But we’re, I’m also interested to know about your organization carriage to resist. And you’ve been working there and you’ve been, you know, directing it for some time through this organization. As I’ve read, you’ve supported many U. S. military war resistors. Can you tell us about some of the recent cases that you worked on?

Jeff Paterson: The most recent case that people may have heard about, Chelsea Manning, is an individual who released a lot of documents into the public domain. About 10 years ago now, it exposed, uh, a lot of what the U. S. did in Iraq and Afghanistan. You know, Chelsea was charged with the Espionage Act and was in prison for seven years, uh, before we were able to, uh, convince, uh, President, uh, Barack [00:23:00] Obama in the last days of his presidency to, uh, to let her go from prison.

She was, because she had been sentenced to like 35 years. So she would have spent another, you know, Two and a half decades in prison, if not for, you know, the collective efforts of our, our community. So very proud of that. Reality Winner was a woman who released, um, a document exposing Trump’s, uh, Somewhat friendly ties to Vladimir Putin and U.

S. election interference. We weren’t able to get her out of prison quicker, uh, but we raised her profile and she has a very nice movie you can watch about her now. Sort of exposed, uh, what happened. We were very active in, uh, helping people, uh, during, uh, the Iraq and Afghanistan war. Uh, helping people migrate, immigrate to Canada extra illegally, uh, during that period of time.

And, uh, some of the [00:24:00] biggest cases, uh, during, when the Iraq war started in 2006, 2010. Also, some of the first, uh, resistors to that point these days, relatively quiet. You know, the US is a. A quote unquote all volunteer army military, which means that for the most part, wealthy and upper middle class kids aren’t pressured into that situation.

It’s, it’s poor, uh, working class kids like myself at the time that, uh, see that as a real opportunity. So it’s important to remember that people, Courage to Resist supports people who. Voluntarily joined up for the U. S. military at some point in their life, usually when they’re 18, like I was and through self education or in my case, seeing the thing I was actually part of, um, as I traveled to the Philippines and South Korea and like Okinawa, Japan and [00:25:00] seeing, uh, that and, you know, I was trained is a, uh, artillery specialist.

It really got me thinking. When, back in the late 80s, right, there was a raging war, El Salvador comes to mind, and there was a guerrilla movement, FMLN, it was very large and a very big concern to the U. S. empire. So, you know, it was part of that that got me thinking, like, You know, we’re using maps of El Salvador and Nicaragua, the San Anistas were, were still in power during the early parts of my enlistment.

And it really was my training and thinking. Like, I, I’m probably, uh, they’re expecting me to deploy to Central America and as far as I can see, the people of Central America should be able to figure out what political system they want to choose. It wasn’t part of [00:26:00] anything I should have a say in and certainly nothing I wanted to shoot anybody over.

So that’s what actually got me thinking in that kind of way at all. So when I was, uh, ordered to deploy to Iraq to do the same thing in Iraq, that’s sort of what. Allowed me to say, uh, no, I’m not going to kill anybody over a political system that, uh, I think people should choose for theirself how they want to be ruled.

Reem Abbas: I want to hear also about your advocacy and the international causes that you worked on. So you talked about the case of, uh, Chelsea Manning. But if you could also tell us more about some of the international advocacy that you’re doing, I know that you’ve done some work in Israel, for example. What are the opportunities for synergy, for people to come together, you know, for you to also network with Alejandro and Sophia to do more work?

And what are the challenges? 

Jeff Paterson: I’ve traveled to Canada a few times, and we successfully [00:27:00] advocated for the Canadian government to to allow U. S. war resisters to remain in Canada. So now dozens, uh, of very public objectors who represent hundreds of individuals who weren’t public, they’ve married Canadian spouses, they have Canadian children, um, and they’re living very nice lives in Canada, but they can never return to the U.

S. unless they’ll be arrested and put into a military prison. We’ve traveled to, uh, Europe, um, as some of our War resisters have sought refuge in Germany, specifically, and today you’re right. You know, the situation in Gaza is, I can’t find the words right. It’s horrendous. So we have, you have Israelis who, like in Colombia, are forced to join the military and those individuals are being imprisoned.

Today for not joined the Israeli defense forces and to me, the situation [00:28:00] in Ukraine is, is horrendous because my family kind of came from Europe, not too, not very long ago. And most of my family were on the wrong side of world war two. You know, my grandmother cooked for the German government. My uncle and my old uncle, You know, he was a tank mechanic at 12 years old, you know, working on German tanks, fighting the U S and just to see, uh, the horrendous invasion of Ukraine has definitely challenged my own personal ideas of nonviolence, violence, and really kind of brought to home as like, These aren’t easy questions, even for me for doing this 20 years, what would I do if I was a Ukrainian?

You know, would I, would I fight, uh, invading, uh, imperial force? Would I be a conscientious projector? I have no idea. I’m not sure. What I would hope is that if I was a Russian, I would refuse because, you know, again, from my perspective, it’s one thing, [00:29:00] uh, to fight a war against your neighbor. It’s another thing to defend yourself.

And those are all the questions that, you know, conscientious objectors really have to deal with. And these are the situations that you have to be willing to discuss and, and defend your positions in front of these, uh, military, uh, basically small tribunals. If you want the U. S. military to, you know, validate your application and discharge.

Reem Abbas: Sophia, I want to go back to you because I feel that it’s very important to talk about the general sentiment right now in Russia and how people feel about the war. And this is something that most people don’t hear about, you know, how the average person in Russia feels about the war and the fact that you are seeing also more deserters and you’ve worked with over, you know, you said 1000, you know, men who want to leave the service because they don’t want to fight this war.

They feel that. It’s not their work. So what is not communicated in the media and what should people know about how people feel in Russia? [00:30:00] 

Yes. Thank you. I find this question very important. And the first thing that I would like to mention is that Russian society is extremely apolitical. One can describe the state of mind of Russians as, um, depoliticization.

And it happened under. Putin’s authoritarian regime, uh, that society and voters, they just play the role of people on demand. Their task is to make money and consume. The authorities are suspicious of, um. Suspicious and punish, uh, people, uh, for any collective action. Yes. So we can see it’s, for example, what happened with Alexei Navalny and his team.

So when people see some political activity anywhere, they just try to avoid it. And, uh, this is what, um, I think it’s a result of, uh, repressive legislation in [00:31:00] Russia and also the propaganda. And, um, at the same time, authorities, uh, have, um, requests. Yeah. Because people must come and, uh, come to the election and vote for them.

It’s like a confirmation of their legitimacy. And, um, After that, uh, people can come back to their private life, like duty is done and then I can, uh, do my business. And, um, about the war in general, there is no mass support of the war in Russia. Most people, they just simply, uh, tolerate the war. They consider it as unavoidable and they prefer not to think about it.

It’s on the small groups, like the minority who exploits this situation for some personal gains. Uh, they actively support it. And this is what we see in the media, yeah, like Russian state media. People in [00:32:00] general, they are tired of. Of war and the government, yeah, but it’s impossible to, uh, learn about it if, uh, they, uh, have an opinion poll on the streets, for example, like, do you support the war or do you want to go, uh, to the, to prison for 10 years because of Russian, uh, repressive legislation?

If you, so it’s illegal not to support the war. in Russia. I mean, in public. Yeah. If you ask how long people will tolerate it, uh, the answer is quite simple. As long as it’s as necessary. Yeah. So people, uh, in my opinion, people begin to act when they are, when they see an alternative and currently, uh, such an alternative doesn’t exist because Putin offers, like, Albeit bad rules of life.

And I think that when a clear alternative emerge, space [00:33:00] for the protest will open up. And also, um, I wanted to tell about deserters. Yeah. So most of our clients are men. Uh, who live in regions. So, as Alejandro mentioned, um, this conscription system, uh, creates, creates inequality, yeah, and it’s the same, absolutely the same situation in Russia, uh, because most people in Moscow and St.

Petersburg, they try to avoid conscription or, or mobilization, yeah, and most people who live. In the region, there is no other social lift, but to go to the army. Unfortunately, uh, there are only a few of our deserters who were ideologically against the war. Like, I don’t want to invade the neighbor country.

I don’t need to defend my country. And who are those Nazis? Yes. [00:34:00] So this is what Russian propaganda, Russian propaganda says that we are fighting against some Nazis, um, in Ukraine who doesn’t exist, of course. And, um, unfortunately our clients, they were forced to sign the contract or they have, uh, their own reason.

to do that because the average, uh, salary of Russian men in the region is like 30, 000 rubles, which is, uh, 300. And the salary of the soldier is 200, 000. So, uh, rubles, which is 2, 000. And unfortunately, most, uh, men signed the contract and, uh, go to the front line now because just, they just want to, uh, because of, uh, the money.

Yeah. So they just want to solve their problems, their personal problems. And, uh, at some point they realized that they made a mistake and then they, um, [00:35:00] uh, contact us. That’s it. 

Reem Abbas: Sophia, I wanted to follow up with you because you talked a lot about, you know, the work that you’re doing and also the sentiment, you know, inside Russia, but also there is a lot of, you know, um, criminalization happening to anyone that is standing against the war.

Your organization, as I know, is, you know, based outside Russia. You are in, you know, different countries. Some of you are in countries that border Russia. So what is the personal cost? You know, how do you protect yourself? How do you, how do you protect the members, you know, in get lost? And have you been having any security challenges?

Uh, so we work, uh, online and, um, all our team is outside of Russia, as you mentioned. Yeah, we also have a very big team of volunteers and, uh, they are also outside of Russia. So actually we are spread all over the world. Yes, as you [00:36:00] mentioned, we were originally in Georgia, but, uh, it was, uh, It was just the easiest way, yeah, because after the immobilization and after the war, there were two big waves of immigration from Russia.

So approximately 600, 000 people, uh, uh, left Russia and for most Russians, it was the easiest option just to go to Georgia because we don’t need a visa. The Russians don’t need a visa to live there and it’s quite easy to open. And organization and also, um, yeah, it’s quite comfortable to live there, but now of course, uh, we know that legislation of Georgia is, uh, becoming more repressive and, uh, there are also some like laws on foreign, uh, foreign agents and, uh, all this conservative turned and, uh, that’s why we and all other.

Russian human rights projects are trying to move their [00:37:00] organization outside of Georgia. So that’s what we are doing now. 

Reem Abbas: Alejandra, I want to go back to you and talk about your activism and the work that you’re doing and, um, you know, when you’re living in. militarized society and country, you usually face a lot of backlash, you know, for this kind of work.

And sometimes it’s not even from the government. It’s also from the community. Can you tell us about how people perceive the work that you’re doing, whether it’s the community or the government and what kind of things have you heard from people telling you about this work? And what is the stance against the mandatory military service in general?

Alejandro Parra Macías: Well, a very important part of our work is to show the different impacts of militarization and militarism in our culture, in our lives. So, for example, something that we don’t mention yet, but the war and the militarization have a huge impact against [00:38:00] women. In each country, because this is a lot of macho culture, warrior culture, and all the things that, that obviously put in the mind of the people, just one perspective, and it’s men are prepared to the war, women are prepared to belong to their houses, but there is something that the people doesn’t know about the, the, the war.

And for example, in Columbia, the body of the women are used as a, as a weapon in war, because you can rape. the, the women’s in, in some town to, to send a message, a message to the people in, in arms, to the guerrillas members or to the paramilitary army and say, your women are not, are, are ours now. And thi, this is just one example, but for example, part of our work, [00:39:00] we do a national research between 2017 and 2020, and we find some very warrior thi things like, for example, in uh, 2000, between 2015 and 2017, 4,600 police and military.

Personal has been investigated for violence against women and this violence that they receive in the training process, they projected that violence against their families or their partners. And this is a huge problem, not only in Colombia. So for that reason, we do this research called invisible violences.

This research was nominated, uh, for a National Digital Journalism Award. And, and we, we win the second place in this national award because a lot of [00:40:00] people, uh, say these guys, these soldiers are heroes. And, and you create a mental prototype of these guys. Yeah. So these values, his values are, are the best values of this society.

They are disciplined guys. They are honorable guys, and they have respect of the life of a lot of people. But. The people don’t like to hear that. Yeah, but also they are rape a lot of women and they are objectified a lot of women and they, they use a very misogynistic language in, in the process of training, like for example, in Columbia, the people that train in, in the military service receive these kinds of messages, like, uh, the Fusil, the gun is as your girlfriend.

So if you have to know how to put your finger inside your girlfriend, you have to know how to put, how [00:41:00] to put your finger in your web. So obviously, uh, that, that’s a huge, uh, I’m very repulsive, uh, kind of language doesn’t have. any to do, uh, or any relation with military things for, for, for what is the word or what is the proposed, uh, the purpose of this kind of language.

We do a lot of things. Our work has an important impact in our society. For example, we, uh, Take a lot of different strategies to fight against this, a practice of a military detentions, military arbitrary detentions in the streets. Because when, when the people go into the street and soldiers appear specifically in, in poor neighborhoods and say, where is your military card?

And, and people say, no, I don’t have it because I don’t start my process of resolve my military status, go to the truck. They took [00:42:00] the people from the streets directly to the battalion. That’s almost a kidnapping by, by the force of the state. So we, we start to fight against this practice in a non violent way.

put in, in the front of these trucks and say, this is illegal, this is unjust, this is so unfair. And a lot of people start to, to get together against this kind of practice. And in 2014, the constitutional court declared that the army’s practice of using trucks to take young people and going to the battalions are arbitrary detentions and declare illegal this practice.

Because the work that we do with a lot of people in this country, and also in 2009, we, we also get to the constitutional court, recognize the consensus objection as a [00:43:00] fundamental right and create an institution. for, for consensus objectors, but in, in the practice, it’s, it’s very hard to respect this, uh, or guarantee this right inside of the battalions.

In 2022, we create with different people from the new government, uh, progress. We make some kind of a special advisor to a new proposal for include a social service for, for peace as an alternative to the military service. So for the first time in, in almost 200 years in Colombia, people have the right to choose between the military service or a social service.

kinds of social services. This is part of the impact of our work, but yeah, we receive a lot of hate for that, especially in, in social media, because [00:44:00] the war has a lot of propaganda behind and say, you, you have to be a warrior to resolve the, all the problems of this country. Of this country, but the world is the main or one of the one of the main problems in this country.

So, yeah, we have to manage with that, but we will to continue our work trying to find in different perspectives and different ways to achieve the peace of this country. 

Reem Abbas: Thank you, Alejandro. You just mentioned a lot of interesting details about the gender aspect, right, about how this also contributes to more violence against women, and you talked about all the different advocacy and work that you do, whether it’s research, whether it’s reaching out to the community, community organizing, and also Legal work.

Jeff, we want to go back to you and ask you, you know, one final question about the decision. You know, you’ve made 30 something years ago [00:45:00] at the time. Did you understand the repercussions of of this decision? And did you after that, um, meets a lot of also, you know, other servicemen and women who were inspired, you know, by your by your story and by your stance, and they, you know, replicated what you did.

Jeff Paterson: I would say that I understood that I didn’t have any way to know what was going to happen, and I was okay with that, because I knew what would happen if I followed orders, and that was that I would be engaged in something that I would regret for the rest of my life. Now, I didn’t know the repercussions of not doing that, but I came to the conclusion that those unknowns were, were better than the knowns at the time.

And that included prison. And I was right. Uh, and you know, it, I knew it was a life changing moment. And it really was. And it changed the trajectory of my life [00:46:00] for, I think the better. I don’t know. I, I can’t, it’d be interesting to go relive that other life. You know, there’s, there’s not been a day that I’ve regretted, uh, regardless of what I was going through or threats or prison or anything like that.

And that experience, uh, you know, it gives me some insight when I’m talking to people, uh, in the U S military who are trying to make these life decisions. Defining the choices and giving them my perspective. And I also know now that no situation is the same, you know, I came from a particular place and had a particular outlook and there’s, there’s no way that anybody will go through that exact same thing again, I guess what I want to underscore is that.

Every day, the vast majority of the people are conscientious objectors, meaning that I can walk down my road and nobody’s gonna, uh, hit me over the head and steal my stuff. Even if there’s no police around, I’m probably going to be safe. And [00:47:00] society and society and the culture we create. And the people who run society when they think about how to define conscious objection, what it is and isn’t.

All those are the things between 99 percent of the people being a conscious objector or not being a conscious objector. There’s always going to be a few psychopaths, uh, who are going to do the, the contrarian thing regardless, but the vast majority of people were conscious objectors living our life. Uh, for example, I rode my bicycle 5, 000 miles across North America last year.

Camping and weird little places. That was totally fine. The vast majority of the people, uh, were happy to help me out. Uh, nobody tried to bug me or kill me even when there wasn’t a cop around for 200 miles. These aren’t rare situations, and if we, the human beings, uh, plenty of potential, it creates societies where conscious objection is absolutely the [00:48:00] norm, the vast majority of time, regardless of what’s going on.

Now, if you’re in the United States. Don’t join the military. That’s obvious. It’s volunteer military men in the U. S. are obligated to by law to register for the draft, and women will probably have to register at some point, depending on how the case law that we’re following goes. If you are in the military.

And you want to get out for whatever reason, uh, there’s a G. I. Rights Hotline, call them, doesn’t cost any money. If you know you’re a conscientious objector or you think you might be, you can go straight to, uh, the experts at the Center on Conscience and War based out of D. C., and then I’ll support them or the G.

I. Rights Hotline to help you. It costs you no money. You don’t have to go get an attorney and spend thousands of dollars, which I’ve seen happen for people who had no money. It’s all free. [00:49:00] Uh, it does take, uh, the average CEO discharged from the U. S. military can take up to 18 months. So oftentimes we want to talk about other alternatives to get you out of the situation.

That, you know, might be causing you to be on the verge of self harm, for example. So, yeah, that means getting out of the military without a CO designation, but you’re out. So, it’s all about finding what people’s motivations are, what their goals are, and going forward to explain, You know what the real, uh, likelihoods and the risks are for any course of action they take.

Within the U. S. context, that’s the situation. I just want to also add that I am very happy to be in a very privileged position compared to like Sophia or Alejandro. Where, like, my life is, is not, I don’t feel like my life is threatened by my government at this time. And that’s a very, uh, good thing. So I [00:50:00] do get frustrated at conscious ejectors in the U.

S. who are like, Come on, dude, why are you being such, uh, why are you being such, so wimpy about this? There’s other people in the world that are being killed, you know, for, Having these thoughts. So, so thank you for everybody’s work. And, uh, I hope to just participate where I can, which is here in the United States.

Reem Abbas: A big thank you to Jeff, Alejandro and Sophia for joining us on the show. Today, we learned that men from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are particularly vulnerable to forced military conscription. This can be due to corrupt political systems in some countries, a lack of support and knowledge around human rights and societal and cultural pressure for men to protect their country.

We heard the great length many conscientious objectors are forced to go to in order to break away from military service. This can include being forced [00:51:00] to flee their countries and illegally crossing borders to evade prison. And we heard that there is hope, help, and support for those who are unwittingly forced into military conscription.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace podcast. You can find all the resources and bibliography for this episode on our website and in the show notes. Don’t forget to check out some of the other podcasts from the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom.

If you would like to support our work, consider reading our publications and following our social media channels at WILF. I am Reem Abbas and you have been listening to the Mobilising Men for Feminist Peace podcast from WILF. See you next time.

This podcast is produced by OG Podcasts. Find out more at ogpodcasts. co. uk