We speak to Jamila Afghani, the Founder and President of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF) Afghanistan (currently in exile) and the current Vice President of WILPF’s International Board.
For over 25 years, Jamila Afghani has been championing women’s rights in her native, Afghanistan, and beyond. She is the founder of Noor Educational and Capacity Development Organisation (NECDO) which works for Afghan women’s empowerment and political participation and has supported the education of 50,000 women in Afghanistan. She is the former Executive Director of Medica Afghanistan, an organization which provides psycho-social and legal support for victims of gender based violence. In 2015, she founded the Afghan section of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom and currently serves as its president in exile. In 2022, she was awarded the Aurora Prize for Awakening Humanity.
(Q) Who is Jamila Afghani in her own words?
(A) I am from Afghanistan. I grew up in Afghanistan and I spent half of my life living as a refugee. Currently, I’m based in Canada. I have always returned to Afghanistan every time I had the chance and being unable to return is something which really hurts me. I wish I was a bird so that I could fly and go back to my country.
I wish I was a bird so that I could fly and go back to my country.
Jamila Afghani
(Q) Afghanistan has been continually at war since the Soviet invasion in 1978. What was your experience growing up in Afghanistan and how has this experience of war informed your work?
(A) Unfortunately, Afghanistan has been at war for more than 40 years. I call myself the generation of war. After my birth, the democratic system collapsed and the Soviet regime intervened in Afghanistan. Since my childhood, I just remember the rockets and bomb blasts. Right now, I’m very safe, but still traumatized. Every night, I have nightmares. Still, I have those fears with myself, which has occupied my life and it is due to childhood trauma. I don’t remember a single day in Afghanistan that there was no bomb blast or there was no fighting or shooting or firing. That feeling always pushed me to work for peace. I should not let my children or the new generation of the country suffer from the same trauma that I have been dealing with. So this has been a motivation in my life ever since I received my master’s degree. I’m trying to work for peace in my country and also for other countries.
(Q) Can you tell us about your journey and the loss you feel about not being able to go back to see your family?
(A) Well, this is my sixth time becoming a refugee. The first time, I was around 14 or 15 years of age, and we migrated to Pakistan because of the Soviet invasion. I remained in Pakistan for almost 20 years. I got my education and my master’s degree from Peshawar University at that time. When the NATO forces came to Afghanistan, I was one of the first women activists to return and I established my organization there. Around 2010, the security situation was getting bad, and I was receiving a lot of threats from the Taliban and I had to stay away for sometime. Then, I went back to Afghanistan and I joined the Afghan government in the capacity of deputy minister in the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs and I fought against the corruption in the system. Again, mafia groups were after me and they terrorized me a lot and they threatened to take my children from their schools. I had to leave the job and go to Turkey and from there, I went to Bosnia for a work opportunity.
I kept going back to Afghanistan. I went back to Afghanistan and I worked there until 2021. I was a member of the civil society advisory group to the High Peace Council and again, I had threats from the Taliban. Then after the Taliban takeover , I was able to go to Canada and I’ve been here for about 1.5 years.
This is a long journey of going back because I am convinced that my life cannot be anywhere else but my country. I was convinced that I can only remain happy in my own country. But after the Taliban takeover, the situation is becoming tougher. Taliban are against women’s rights and they are against the women’s movement. Currently, you can see that most of the women activists are outside Afghanistan. So although I have tried so many times to return, my husband and family continue to convince me not to and they keep fighting with me on this issue. They know that if I go back, the Taliban will put me in prison and from here, at least I can be with my family and I can support my larger family.
(Q) Jamila, you’re known for the pioneering work you’ve been doing with men in Afghanistan where you’ve identified and built the capacity of thousands of men who identify as male allies for gender equality. What did you learn about the range of men’s experiences and processes of militarisation and armed conflict in the country and what surprised you?
(A) Well, actually Afghanistan is a very traditional and male-dominated society. Afghans are famous as great warriors and have a long history of defeating superpowers on their soil. Although usually they have been weak and they were always poor, nobody was able to conquer Afghanistan or this is the mentality which has been cultivated in the brain of each and every Afghan, especially men. Usually, men in Afghanistan are having that type of ego that nobody can defeat them or they are above all. This is something that makes me a little bit upset because I was giving training to Imams when I was working with our male allies in Afghanistan and facing this egoistic type of mentality or mindset with every man, that they were proud of being warriors and they were proud of defeating superpowers, I was feeling that because of this type of mentality, it is very difficult to change the mindset of men in Afghanistan. I was surprised when I changed the methodology and I was adopting different methods to show them that this type of egoism is an obstacle which does not let us to see out of the box, or see different experiences. If we were living in peace, we could have been a very prosperous country, but we have spent a lot of our time at war and this made us poor and backward.
(Q) What about your experience and the experiences of women living under constant war? Is there something particular that you see in Afghan women that you feel is a result of just living through war and trying to navigate this system?
(A) There is a scientific formula which says that every action has a reaction, but in this case, it is in the opposite direction. War, the patriarchal mindset and this type of tribal mentality in Afghanistan has pushed down girls and women in our society. Every woman in Afghanistan has faced many challenges within family and society. So they have been constantly in a struggle to get their rights or to find a space in society. At the same time, I see how innovative they are, that with all these difficulties, they are always finding different ways to find their spaces. And usually I call girls and women of Afghanistan as strong as the mountains of the country. No harshness, no cold, no heat can change their determination. And that’s why we are struggling. Like me, many other Afghans are receiving awards in different countries, they are struggling day and night, and they have several achievements. We are working outside Afghanistan and we are connected with our sisters, with our colleagues, with our members. and we never stop working. As Afghan women, we are always full of hope as long as the struggle is there.
(Q) Your research reveals that the ‘war system’ is not simply gendered but structures gender itself. What did you learn about the influence of economic and political forces and the ways ideas and images of masculinity are used to mobilize men to fight, to normalize militarism and to distract attention from the wider interests at work?
(A) In Afghanistan, men have always been empowered, this is part of our history and this is passed from one generation to another. Men have always remained in power because when they have guns, they have power and they have money, of course they do not hear from anybody else. And this has always been an obstacle in the way of women, so we have been deprived from the very basic right of education or getting access to medical care or any other basic services. This kind of mentality, this weaponization, even for families, having a gun or carrying a weapon is connected to being a man, having the honor or dignity of a man. This had a bad impact on women’s life. We also have different cultures , for example, in the Pashtun tribal community, if a man likes a woman and he proposes to the family and he gets rejected, he starts fighting in front of the family house and he announces to the community that he will marry this girl or woman and nobody else can. He would also threaten any man that proposes to this girl with death. This culture is called “Ghag”. In some other tribes, in marriage, a girl is exchanged for a weapon by a family. Also, if any problem happens inside a family, the girls get killed in the name of honor killing which is commonplace. Young children sometimes shoot members of the family as they are playing with guns because they look at how their fathers have used the guns. So all of our life is occupied by weapons. Afghan men are always pictured holding guns. And this is what makes the situation for girls and women very difficult.
(Q) From an international perspective, the predominant mode of engaging with the suffering of Afghans, and Afghan women in particular, has been through an understanding of gender which is primarily based on impressions of Afghan patriarchal culture, and ultra conservative men. You work with many male allies and have previously said they are ‘a beacon of hope’ in the country. Talk to us about the different roles men can play in your work for feminist peace?
(A) When you work with male allies, you are defying stereotypes. Working with men from 2007 onwards was one of the most challenging, but at the same time the most rewarding experience. From 2007- 2015, I was personally involved in training 6,000 Imams on women’s rights and human rights issues from a feminist perspective. I started the training with a group of 20 Imams from Kabul province, and it expanded to 22 provinces. The 6000 trained Imams were empowered to be women’s rights advocates and these Imams were always standing to support women’s right, girls’ education and they fully supported us in the reduction of domestic violence. Since the 2021 Taliban take over, these Imams remained helpful in many ways.
Based on my personal experience when I work with men, we can see that they are very rigid and they come with a patriarchal mindset and with the pride of having weapons or defeating the foreigners. As a mother, as a natural peacekeeper, when I start talking with the men or allies, I think one of the shortcomings in the women’s movement all around the world was that we always excluded men from women’s rights issues. We try to train women about their rights and to make them gender sensitized, but we always try to keep ourselves away from men. When I was working, religious leaders were confronted with my work and they were creating a lot of obstacles. But when I started working with imams and I involved imams in my work, and those imams who are influential figures in the society, they started talking within the community that I am providing different services for their children and that they can send their children to me. Believe me, we had one center in Ghazni province and in three or four years, that one center changed to 36 centers and it was only possible when influential figures of the society, influential men of the society started supporting our work. When they started supporting our work, the community started accepting more, or listening more to them. And I think it’s very crucial to bring men on the feminist peace movement and work with men as positive allies and supportive allies. It makes our struggle more result-oriented.
There are many stories, but I should share with you one story. So we were working with men to discuss women’s rights during their Friday sermon. So then one of the imams spoke about women’s rights during a Friday sermon. One Friday, an old man who was sitting in the corner of the mosque started crying. And when all the people left the mosque after their prayers, he came to the imam and he took him by the collar and shook him and asked: why were you not telling me this before? Before, I thought it is part of my religious obligation and my manhood that I should be harsh with the female members of the family. And he said, I never allowed my daughters to go to school. I never asked them about their opinion and I just married them off and one of my sisters and my daughter-in-law were sick and I never allowed them to to be operated on by a male doctor and one of them passed away and now you’re telling me all these were wrong and now it’s too late. I was thinking that this is because of religion and I saw myself as a good man.
So of course the imam told him that now he has a chance to correct the mistakes with the grandchildren. So he became a great advocate of peace and women’s rights in a village and he had around six or seven granddaughters. So every morning, he would knock on the doors of his sons to allow the granddaughters to go to school and he was picking all those granddaughters and dropping them in school and in the afternoon, he was bringing them back. Also when it was time for vaccination, he was knocking every door and was asking the family to vaccinate their girls and babies. During elections, he was trying to convince his community to allow their female family members to vote. That guy has become a role model for many other men in that society, in that community.
I have many inspiring stories and my friends are encouraging me to record them so they could be used in strategies and working modalities in the future.
(Q) Much of the international media focus since the Taliban takeover is around women’s rights – with the implicit suggestion that women’s rights were protected under the US occupation (who also used women’s rights as part of their justification for invasion). What are your views on the symbolic use of women in this context? Do you think the international community recognises men and boys as also being victims of war?
(A) To be honest, I’m extremely upset with the international policies regarding Afghanistan. It was really a wrong strategy that the United States of America with NATO intervened in Afghanistan by calling for the sympathy of their people to support Afghan women. And during the 20 years of U.S. interventions in Afghanistan, their work was very much project-based activities. The efforts didn’t alter the social and political perspectives or manage to have a deep impact on our society. Then, the US and NATO, due to their own benefit, decided to leave Afghanistan and all of a sudden hand over Afghanistan to the Taliban. All those achievements we had, up to some extent, are wiped off. Now women are unable to attend schools. Many basic rights have been taken from them. So the rights of Afghan women have been politicized. It is used as a political tool by different political groups in the country and also the international community has also used it for their own benefit. And today, the international community and the media and the UN are talking about the women’s situation in Afghanistan, but we can’t see any solid and concrete steps taken in order to change the situation. A lot of aid is going to Afghanistan without any conditionality. And I’m sure a huge amount of this money is used by the Taliban, but they do not place any conditions to improve women’s rights in Afghanistan. All the interaction of the international community, the UN system, with Taliban is not impactful. There are many consultation meetings by the the UN about this , but nobody is taking action. So unfortunately it is very symbolic, it is politicized and when a mother is not safe, when mothers are not having a good life, the impact of that life is on the children.
In Afghanistan, every single individual has suffered, men and women, boys, girls, everybody.
Jamila Afghani
Yesterday, I was talking to one of my friends. She has been a teacher for almost 15 years. She has brought her children, educated children, and her daughters. They are the most intelligent students in the schools and they had very good grades. But now, the eldest son of that family is suffering from psychosocial problems and he is trying to commit suicide because he is unable to find any job. Although he is educated, he cannot find a job. And because of his upbringing, he is not the person to go to hold a gun and fight. He is a person who wants to positively contribute to the society and he is unable to do anything. This negative impact is not only on women, but on men as well.
Most of our male allies lost their jobs with the new regime replacing Imams, professors and professional workers. Taliban are bringing their own uneducated or unprofessional men to replace the previous regime professionals and huge number of families face economic barriers and cannot feed their families. Some of male allies when they raised their voices to support girls education and women employment, they were jailed for months and badly tortured. One Taliban leader said that if a girl or women is caught without proper hijab, then the male member of the family will be jailed. The Imams raise voices for women’s right are warned not to speak and many were terminated from their positions.
(Q) There are stereotypes surrounding the Afghan community at large, but do you feel that there is no sympathy for Afghan men who are also labelled and stereotyped?
A) If you remember sometime during the Donald Trump administration, he praised the Taliban for being the best warriors. So this is stereotypical thinking. When the Taliban took over, all of a sudden it seems that whoever is from Afghanistan, they are labelled as terrorists, whether they are men and women. Today our passport has no value, getting a visa is very complicated and employment opportunities are also very much complicated for all of us inside and outside the country. So this type of stereotype is impacting our social norms, but it is also reducing our opportunities and access to resources. And unintentionally or intentionally, this environment is pushing people towards holding weapons and continuing to fight.
(Q) You had to flee Afghanistan with your family after the Taliban takeover, but you remain very committed to working there, especially on the issue of the education of girls. What form does this work take now that you’re based in Canada, and what has been the response of the Taliban regime, do you feel that they are still intimidating people like you?
(A) Yes, unfortunately, as I’m working for women’s rights and for the right of girls to education, I felt unsafe. I left, but my objective as long as I am alive is to continue the struggle. Currently, we are running underground home schools. Although these are hidden schools, it is not reported to the government, but still the intelligence has taken over our office many times. They are coming with their gunmen during the day, during the night, searching our office and many sorts of orders are coming from their department. If on one day more than five women are coming to the office, then immediately after that, we receive a call or maybe somebody comes from the intelligence department to explain why this number of women are coming to this organization and what activity is going on. Our colleagues were held and remained under the custody of the Taliban for many hours for investigation and they were terrorized. Still, we are trying to keep the small candles of hope lit.
(Q) There is a direction to recognise the Taliban as a legitimate authority. Given the Taliban’s policies exclude women and girls from social, economic, political and cultural life in Afghanistan, do you regard this as an opportunity to secure girl’s access to education? What are some benchmarks you would recommend?
(A) I think it is very wrong to recognize the Taliban as a legitimate authority when half the population of the country is neglected and rejected and they are deprived of their equal citizenship rights. We know that regional powers and international powers are in favor of recognizing the Taliban as a legitimate government, but this is very wrong. They committed two mistakes which is the intervention in Afghanistan and the unplanned evacuation from Afghanistan. This is the third big mistake that they are going to commit. Taliban has proved that they have not changed. The Taliban of 1994 is the same as the Taliban of 2024. First of all, the international community has to put access to basic human rights for girls and women as a condition. They have to open the doors of schools and universities to girls and women. But recognizing them without any conditions means that you are saying that what they are doing is legitimate. So it is not only about the rights of education and the right of employment, Afghan women are human beings. They are also citizens of the country. I have already communicated with the UN system many times. I have conveyed my message that the Taliban has to accept the international human rights norms and rules and regulation. Only after that, should they be recognized. If they are not recognizing the rights of Afghan girls and women, they do not have the right to be recognized as a legitimate government.
(Q) The UN is currently discussing the appointment of a UN envoy on Afghanistan with a mandate to work on peace and other issues. This is seen as a positive development to ensure that the world doesn’t leave Afghanistan behind and it receives the much-needed attention. In our opinion, how could this role be made effective? What should their agenda look like?
(A) To be honest, I’m really disappointed with this kind of set-up that the UN are suggesting, although it is positive that Afghanistan remains on the UN agenda and the focus of the international community. We have had many special rapporteurs such as Richard Bennett and they have developed many reports, but at the same time, there is no outcome. For example, the Taliban are rejecting the reports produced by the United Nations. In my opinion, if we do have reports and research and there are some recommendations, we need to ensure that the recommendations are adopted and this should be pushed by the UN.
Further reading:
Making Visible The Afghan Men Who Are Working For Women’s Rights And A Gender-Just Society
